s3 e3: breastfeeding with therese dansby

In this episode we are focusing on all things related to breastfeeding and what new moms can expect in the fourth trimester with registered nurse and IBCLC, Therese Dansby. Therese received her Bachelor’s Degree in Science and became a Registered Nurse in 2007. She was a Neonatal Intensive Care (NICU) nurse for the first 8 years of her career. After brief stints working in high risk OB and then in a low-risk birth center and completing half of a Master’s degree with the intent of becoming a Certified Nurse Midwife, she instead became an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant in 2015 after overcoming several feeding obstacles with her first baby. She is now a homeschooling mom of 3, with kids’ ages ranging from 8 years to 8 months, and has left the hospital to continue building her own lactation consultation private practice. 

Therese and Cortney have since released their Nourished Beginnings breastfeeding and postpartum course. Podcast listeners can enter code AYM10 for a 10% discount!
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Visit Therese’s website 
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Amanda Montalvo 0:00
Hey, this is Amanda Women’s Health dietitian. And I’m Emily nutritional therapy practitioner and this is the RU menstrual podcast where we help you navigate the confusing world of women’s hormones in teach you how to have healthy periods. Each week we will be diving into a different topic on women’s health and sharing our perspective using nutrition, female physiology and metabolic health. Our goal is to help you wade through conflicting health information and empower you on your healing journey. We hope you enjoy it.

In this episode, we are focusing on all things related to breastfeeding and what new moms can expect in the fourth trimester with registered nurse and ibclc. Teresa Dansby Terese received her bachelor’s degree in science and became a registered nurse in 2007. She was a neonatal intensive care or NICU nurse for the first eight years of her career. After a brief stint working in high risk OB and then a low risk birth center and completing half of a master’s degree with the intent of becoming a certified midwife. She instead became an international board certified lactation consultant in 2015. After overcoming several feeding obstacles with her first baby. She is now a homeschooling mom of three with kids ages ranging from eight years to eight months, and has left the hospital to continue her own lactation consultation, private practice. I’m so excited to have you here today. Therese, I really appreciate you coming on. I feel like I selfishly have a lot of questions for you as a new mom. But can you just like go right into this whole transition from midwife to ibclc? Because that, like really surprised me. I had no idea. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Amanda. I’m just really happy to be here with you. And you’re in such a perfect season to talk about this with so I, when I was a senior in high school, I went to an all girls high school, so we could do this. We watched a birth video in anatomy class. And I came home and I was like, That’s it. I’m going to be an OB GYN. And my dad is a doctor, and he’s very supportive. But he was like, Where do you see yourself in 10 years? And I said, Well, you know, okay, like, married, maybe thinking about having a kid. He was like, when you have kids? How much do you want to work? And I said, Well, probably just part time. And he was like, you probably don’t want to be a doctor. And he was like, I’m very thankful for that conversation. Because he was right, that did not mesh. And that would have been a lot of time and money for that realization. So he told me about nurse Midwifery, which I actually didn’t know about. They just they had nurse midwives at the hospital. He was that and I shadowed a few when I was in high school. And I was like, okay, great, you know, easy pivot, I’ll go to nursing school, and I’ll go to midwifery school. So I went to nursing school, and I applied for jobs afterwards. And I applied for kind of everything in the maternal child spectrum. And I think the only job interviews I got, or at all the NICUs I applied to, so I was like, Well, okay, that’s fine. I’ll work in the NICU for a while and then reapply to lnd and I just fell in love with the NICU. And I stayed there for about five years, I kind of hit a little burnout point, which I think is fairly common in a really intense field like that. And I thought, okay, now’s my time to go back to midwifery school.

Therese Dansby 3:24
I applied I got in, I got about halfway through. And I just

realized, kind of similar to that first conversation, I feel like

I, I realized, I just wanted to have my own babies. I feel like that sounds so kind of weird to say, I was like, I love this. And I care so much about this. And I don’t want to be on call 24/7. I shadowed a midwife and clinic who just worked part time and part time hours were like, three clinic days a week plus 124 hour on call shift every week. And I was like, this is this is a lot I just and then some of my friends were talking to me about malpractice insurance, and you kind of have to work full time to afford it. And I just,

I just stopped. It was a hard decision and a very humbling one, but I was like, I’m gonna stop now. I had been a teaching assistant. So thus far, I had avoided like loans and stuff. And I was kind of at this point where I was going to start having to pay and I just didn’t see myself

using it and the way that I thought I would. So that was a humbling decision. I went back to the NICU. And I always loved working with the feeding team in the NICU. So there was an occupational therapist, a speech therapist, and a lactation consultant that would work with all the babies and they were called the feeding team. And

I was like, maybe someday I’ll go back and become a speech therapist and do that because I loved what they did.

And then I was like, what

What am I doing? Like ibclc is the easiest route to get into the beating team. And that’s what I want to do anyways, you know, I don’t want to go to speech path school or

so I filed that away, because again, I was like we’re about to start a family. This is not the time to restart another grad school program. And then my first kiddo was about 10 months old, and the hospital I was at in the NICU had a scholarship for ibclc training, and I kind of just, I applied, and I jumped at it, and I got it, and I did it. So in the end, it kind of fell into my lap, and I just haven’t looked back at all. It’s been the best. That was seven years ago. Yeah, like in 2015, I think. Yeah. So like seven years. And what was your first breastfeeding experience? Like, was it Yeah, it was, at first I thought it was because it wasn’t painful. And He nursed for a long time. But I was like, okay, that’s fine. We’re cluster feeding like

the NICU. Nurse me was so rule oriented and the NICU we’d be the baby’s like, exactly this many milliliters of milk and you weigh their diapers and like, it was so hard for me to trust my intuition, but I, I was like, Okay, we’re still checking all the boxes. We’re still peeing this many times and pooping so many times and but he wasn’t actually eating often enough. He was only eating like six or seven times a day. And in my head, I was like, well, but he’s eating for like, an hour each time. So maybe, but he went, you know, at three weeks, he went back to birthweight. So then I started playing catch up with triple feeding and seeing a lactation consultant and all of that. And he ended up having a posterior tongue tie, which, which was probably a big part of the problem. But we didn’t get that addressed. So he was two and a half. And I just was so fed up with the, it was so hard to find answers, or like, it was like, there was some secret out there that nobody was telling me.

I felt like by the time I got to the bottom of it, I was practically there. I mean, I’d already had the hours working with moms and babies. I didn’t mind the the studying and the education. And then then you you took the board exam, and I finally had my answers, but it was a big rabbit hole. Yeah, I and I think that’s something that every like new mom or soon to be new mom should hear is that even someone that was a nurse and NICU nurse Yeah, and did this for a living and was studying to be an ibclc had a hard time and couldn’t quite find all the answers that you’re looking for. So, you know, don’t beat yourself up. Because yeah, I feel like I get messages all the time, because I talked about my daughter’s tongue tie and lip tie. And they were just, it’s like, so many moms just don’t know what to do. You know? So yeah, yeah. And you want somebody to tell you what to do. And part of becoming a mother is taking ownership of those things. But I just felt so unsupportive in them because, you know, my pediatrician was like, No, he doesn’t have a tongue tie. And it was just a little bit crazy making. And it took me a while to be more assertive and find a different care team and figure things out.

But everything he ended up how long did he end up breastfeeding for 27 months? Awesome. Yes, yet.

So even when the tongue tie didn’t, didn’t stop, yeah, he did not get revised until we weaned because in older babies and, and toddlers, it can cause an aversion and so I was like, well just finish and then yeah. And then do it. He was having some issues with solids and things like that. So yeah, and it was so for us it was not enjoyable or bonding until after a year because I was so focused on is he gaining weight, he was always like in the time percentile, you know, and I just still was counting his diapers I mean, red flag for postpartum anxiety. I was counting his date of birth, I was counting his minutes of beating I was counting his minutes of sleep for months. And finally after a year, I was like, Okay, we don’t have to do this anymore. We get to do this now. And yeah, now I see why people talk about it in a more positive light. I have the exact opposite experience where okay. I Eliana was I was told she has a tongue and lip tie because we had some troubles in the beginning. And she lost a lot of weight very quickly. I just think that I just didn’t know how and she didn’t know how to breastfeed either. And we were just kind of like learning together. And she had a hard time latching so of course, like she definitely had tightness, but I was like, you know, there. She had her two week appointment. She had gained all her weight back. Okay, so I was like, Okay, great. So I’m not gonna like do anything about this time then like I’m not gonna get it revived.

I just like felt deep down. I was like, I just don’t think that I think that we can do other things to help this and like stretch it out. And I mean, now she’s like she’s been in like the 95th percentile for weight.

Amanda Montalvo 10:11
So she’s a very chunky, chunky girl. But like, every lactation, I could not find one lactation consultant that would be like, supportive of me not having it revised. And that like, I was like, wow, this is like, very disheartening. I just feel like come on. I don’t, if someone tells if a client tells me they don’t want to do something, then I don’t I don’t, I’m not gonna say I’m not going to work with you.

I don’t know. It’s just like, felt so aggressive. But yeah, I was just curious.

Therese Dansby 10:38
Yeah, people message me all the time. And they’re like, Should I do this? Should I not? And like, well, I don’t know. Because I haven’t seen your baby. Yeah, but I don’t fall in the camp of like, Absolutely. Always, you should revise or absolutely never, you should revise. That is totally a case by case basis. And I, having had my own, like, maternal concerns and intuition, kind of squelch, so early on, I’m really big on like, we’re gonna talk about this until you feel better about it. And we’re gonna get to the bottom of it. So that’s, that’s my philosophy.

Amanda Montalvo 11:12
I love that. I think that moms need that kind of support, especially for their first babies, because you’re just like, I don’t want to do anything wrong. Like, I don’t want to do anything that’s gonna hurt the baby. You know, like, there’s just so much like worry and anxiety around that. So it’s like, if you can just have someone that’s so supportive of you, and they’re like, listen, like, what do you what do you think, you know, what do you think that he or she needs? You know, so?

Therese Dansby 11:32
Yeah, yeah. What do you think they need right now? Yeah, let’s go. Let’s go that direction.

Amanda Montalvo 11:37
I love that. So just even just talking about new moms. That was probably the top question I got from women on Instagram. When I posted the little question box, like I’m interviewing Therese, what do you guys want to know about breastfeeding? And most people were just kind of like, I want to prepare, because they’re either pregnant, or they’re thinking about getting pregnant, and they just don’t know what to expect. So what can new moms expect in that fourth trimester? And we’ll talk about like, different seasons of breastfeeding, because they’re all very different. But what about that fourth trimester?

Therese Dansby 12:09
Yeah, I think the fourth trimester again, with your first baby is just such a steep learning curve. And it changes every week is different, because the four I mean, you know, it’s like pregnancy, the change in development is still so rapid. I mean, I remember having friends with babies at the same time as me. And they they’re just so different, even though they’re only a few weeks apart. And so I think it’s so it’s hard to even say what to expect. But I think what you have to plan for is rest, like you’ve talked about, and like I’ve talked about, and I think that taking a breastfeeding education class is helpful. I feel like we learn so much on social media, sometimes we forget, like, if I’m gonna take a birth prep class, I should probably take a breastfeeding class if I’m invested in this. And the perk about taking a class is that you often go with your partner and you guys are on the same page. That was another even my husband is great now, but he will admit like, in the beginning, he was not helpful or supportive. Like he didn’t understand why breastfeeding was important to me. He didn’t understand why I would keep going when it was stressing me out. He has since apologized profusely. But I think even if we, I just thought, I have all the knowledge and I was like, the baby knowledge gatekeeper in our house. And that wasn’t a good dynamic either. So I think just being on board with your partner, and learning those things together is valuable, too.

Amanda Montalvo 13:34
I love that I did I reached out to you. When I was preparing to take a class, I was like Therese, why should I take?

Therese Dansby 13:41
We had just started ours. And I was like, Oh, me. Yeah, and asked me in a few months.

Amanda Montalvo 13:46
I know, I know. That’s okay. I definitely plan on like, I’m definitely gonna go through it in the future. Because I also feel like, you know, we’re probably going to wait at least like a few years to try to have another baby. And one of my friends is like, you’ll forget everything. So you’ll need to do this all again.

Therese Dansby 14:03
And it’ll just be different because that’s exactly person. My second Yes, reading experience was super different from my first and my third has been different to I mean, yeah, that’s so

Amanda Montalvo 14:12
it’s so wild. Do you think about it, but I did have my husband do it with me, mostly because he has an amazing memory is like, My best memory. And I was like, listen, I like you’re gonna go through this. And although when stuff comes up, and I can’t think of it because I haven’t slept and I’m tired. I’m like, I need you to remember and it honestly, like, he was like, amazed by the whole thing. He didn’t we took a birth class together too. And I was kind of like, I’m like, should I make him take the breastfeeding class? And then I was like, yes, like, why wouldn’t I? Because when I need help, he’s gonna feel useless. And that’s not really fair either. So I’m really happy that you mentioned that is your class available now.

Therese Dansby 14:49
It’s so close. Okay, it should be available by the end of September.

Amanda Montalvo 14:54
Okay, cool. Yeah, we’re getting really right around when this comes out then yeah, so and it, I will make sure that we link everything in the stories and Instagram and the podcast notes and everything. Once we have that I’m gonna I’ll definitely go through it too. But I was like, I mean, this was the one I wanted to take when I was talking.

Therese Dansby 15:12
Yeah, yeah. But I’m glad that’s a good point, too, about the memory because you are in this hormonal haze. And you can’t I don’t know what your experience has been at that. But mine like I couldn’t, nobody could have prepared me for that. Like just not having all my faculties the way that I thought I would, you know, it’s very different to take care of a baby that’s not yours when they were one day old versus your one day old baby when you just delivered then. Yeah, so that that is a great point. Yeah, your husband’s life has changed, but not not internally in the same way that yours has. So he can still remember that class that you took two months ago, where you’re just like, all you can see is like your boob and the baby’s head, and you’re like, I don’t know what else

Amanda Montalvo 15:57
I know. And, you know, you’re like troubleshooting. And that was like a big thing. And I’m like a very, like, I like to watch things a few times. I like to take notes, because I’m super like visual. And I have to like write it down to really, like, absorb and learn it. So that’s why I liked the online like course format. Like, for me, that’s a great learning tool. And I wanted to be able to watch the videos later. Yeah, because a lot of it, I just felt like, I’m like, well, this doesn’t apply right now. Because I don’t know if this is the thing, right? Like, I don’t know, if like, like they had stuff and like mastitis and things that can go wrong and tips for latching. And I’m like, How do I know? You just don’t know until you’re there. And you’re doing it? Like so for me, I love the idea of having like the videos to go back. And I did do that I watched a ton when we were having difficulty. So it’s like it’s a good resource. You can there’s like in person classes usually too. It’s just kind of like you don’t know. Yeah, research, research the teacher obviously.

Therese Dansby 16:49
Yeah. And I do teach I teach in person ones as well. And I feel I feel like you can’t go as in depth because the attention span is shorter. Whereas an online class, you can pause it and you can get up and and yeah, also, same thing, since you’re not there yet. They’re just like, staring at me. Yeah. Why question questions do you have, you know, you don’t even know what you don’t know, at that point. And that’s fine. That’s why you take the class to kind of lay that foundation. But I do think having being able to go back is helpful, too. Yeah. And

Amanda Montalvo 17:20
I think like, a lot of the questions people were asking is like, you know, like, how do you know when your milk has come in? Or like, what do you do? And you’re like, dealing with like encouragement and like, just like the growth spurts that happen in that kind of first three months? I feel like they’re just like wild. Can you speak to a little bit of like that, and then how that can change? You know, once you get past that fourth trimester? Yes, the

Therese Dansby 17:44
growth spurts are so intense in the first three months. So how do you know your milk has come in? Most people like you’ll know when your milk comes in. And most people do, but I think for first time moms, it can be like three to six days. And so sometimes you hit that like four days, five days as my milk come in, I don’t know. Usually you will wake up and your breasts are Fuller, they’re warmer, they’re heavier, suddenly, you’re hearing a lot more swallows baby’s poop, if it hasn’t already turned like from kind of black to brown to yellow will turn yellow when your milk comes in. That’s kind of the Cliff’s Notes version of that. It doesn’t have to be painful. And there doesn’t have to be engagement, but most women, there will be that hormonal flip the switch to win. Okay, like my milk has come in now. And then growth spurts that yeah, they’re so intense. And there’s several of them right off the bat before you maybe have even figured out breastfeeding super well. So you’re like, are you cluster feeding because you’re not getting enough milk? Are you cluster feeding because there’s a growth spurt, so there was a lot to watch and pay attention to in the first few weeks. And then that six week point is, I don’t know if you experienced It’s pretty intense feeding wise because they’re having that physical growth spurt, but they’re also having that big developmental leap or growth spurt where like, they’re learning how to smile socially, and they’re sleeping less because they’re not like sleeping newborns anymore. And that one’s pretty intense to feel like after that, it slows down a little bit. So then you hit like a two month growth spurt, and then you had a three month growth spurt, and then they slowed down a little bit.

Amanda Montalvo 19:23
There’s this app. Have you heard of it? It’s called the Wonder weeks.

Therese Dansby 19:27
Yes. Yeah. Do you use it?

Amanda Montalvo 19:29
I do because in the beginning like you were talking about like the six week gross for I feel like Eliana it was like every, like from four weeks, then every two weeks. So it was like 468 Yeah. And those were all like such intense to like something you know, like her sleep would be off or like, I couldn’t console her. She’d want to eat all the time, like something big would happen. And I would I would get like worried. But then I would look and be like, Oh, she’s going through like this leap or whatever. And so for anyone that like I would say like Wonder weeks like really helped me mentally and I had another friend she actually did a gallbladder episode as podcast her son was born the same day Eliana was born. And it was funny how you’re saying babies are so different even though they’re born the same day, almost the same time. Still so different. Like, yeah, go fully different. Like because you know, she’ll like message me like, Are you like is Eliana doing this or like you dealing with this? And I’m like, No, but then like, two days later, you know, so it’s no wonder weeks. And just like knowing that, like, they’re going through these developmental things like the leaps are fun to learn about. And then like the videos that show you like, what they’re seeing and what the development looks like for them. It just like for me, it really gave me lots of like, empathy, and also like, Oh, this is really fun. We can do these things, because she’s like learning this. But also sanity, because you kind of think, Am I doing something wrong? Is she getting what she needs? And especially with breastfeeding? If you’re having any issues in the beginning, all you do is worry after they’re eating enough.

Therese Dansby 21:00
You’re like, do we regress? Did we? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Wonder weeks I’ve had some people tell me that they dread it because of that timeline. And if their baby’s really intense, they’re like, We have a month long, stormy period coming up. And that can be overwhelming. But I think you’re right, if you focus on the information that they have about the face that you’re in it is really helpful and less crazy making because yeah, you’re, you’re like, Oh, we’re just there’s a reason for this. And I can help them through it. And then we get to get to the other side, and they’re going to be rolling over or whatever the skill is.

Amanda Montalvo 21:33
Yeah, it’s I mean, it just like little things like that. And I think that’s the other thing, like when you prepare to breastfeed, it’s like, if something comes up, like if your latch isn’t great, if you have nipple pain, it’s like, you know, you’ve already kind of learned about it. So even if, even if you don’t know exactly what to do, it’s like, you know, that like, Okay, this happens. I don’t want to say like, it’s normal, but it’s common, you know, part of it I feel like can be normal, because you’re both learning how to breastfeed you and the baby. So

Therese Dansby 21:58
yes, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, in homeschooling, we call that the anchor. So it’s like, you’d have this anchor in your memory of nipple pain, and then you can attach all your new information to it. But getting it prenatally gives you that anchor to kind of go back to,

Amanda Montalvo 22:15
yeah, love that. Let’s talk about ecological breastfeeding, we had quite a few questions on that people want to know what it is. And then, you know, we were talking before we started about how it can be used as birth control. And that kind of brought up a lot of questions of like, what does it do to your hormones? Like while you are ecologically breastfeeding?

Therese Dansby 22:35
Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about this. And we probably don’t need to show them all. So I actually had to pull it up, because honestly, there’s a whole checklist of ecological breastfeeding, and I never remember them all. So ecological breastfeeding is not exactly the same as the lactational amenorrhea method or LSDM. And they’re not exactly the same as just your standard natural family planning methods either. So So ecological breastfeeding, is breastfeeding exclusively for the first six months, which then another one is avoid bottles and pacifiers. So we’re talking like exclusively, it’s comfort, nursing and not being with your baby, co sleeping at night feedings, nursing around the clock, and not putting them on a feeding schedule, and not being separated from the baby, which I feel like this list if you’re looking into attachment parenting, and then you look at this list, you’re like, how do I? What? Yeah, how does this mesh with any sort of modern life as we know it, which is a valid question, and it can make you reevaluate life as we know it. But it’s definitely not a good fit for everybody, because you have to follow all of those steps. Yes, all of them. And then even then it’s like really, technically, only supposed to be used as birth control for the first six months. And even after that, it’s not actually reliable birth control. Before six months, I think you’re more likely to have a period without ovulating. But after six months, you’re more likely to ovulate first. And then before you’ve had your period, and so you enter this phase of like, I didn’t know how to get pregnant while I was breastfeeding. Yeah. So I have to be careful too. I’m like I don’t want I don’t want any surprise babies because I said you couldn’t get pregnant while breastfeeding. Not sign up. Yeah,

Amanda Montalvo 24:31
I think that’s why it’s nice to like, just distinguish like what it because I think some people think like, oh, it’s exclusive. Breastfeeding, I’m like it but they’re, I mean, everyone, there’s a different definition for everything. And like exclusive breastfeeding could mean something different to me than it means to someone else. So that’s why I was like, let’s define what it is because you do it’s like it’s like this whole checklist. In technically you have to do all those things. Which is like honestly, impossible for most people. I would say once

Therese Dansby 24:59
you have a sub If my child especially like, I would love to nap with my baby, but I can’t. Most people’s lives are not set up for this even if they are stay at home moms. Yeah. So Yeah, unfortunately, because grandma doesn’t live next door. Yeah, yeah.

Amanda Montalvo 25:16
Well then, but then you’re separated, you know. So exactly. It’s, it’s like, it’s very interesting. I’m like trying with Eliana, but like, even now, it’s like, I have a nanny here a few days a week. And I’m really probably only away from her for like, an hour and a half, two hours tops at a time. But I’m like, is that too long? I mean, I feel weird when I’m away from her. So it could be Yeah, yeah. It’s just interesting. It’s like and yes, like, so for the first six months, it can be used as birth control, if you’re following them all correctly. What about the lactation? A Maria,

Therese Dansby 25:50
that’s also just six months, I think that people don’t quite understand that when they’re like, my friend didn’t get her period. And so she stopped breastfeeding at age three, or whatever. And yeah, I think even when you pull people have been all the Instagram polls, you know, and I’m like, I think more people are getting their period back while they’re breastfeeding than we think they are. But even then, I was, I was not an ibclc at this point. But I was a breastfeeding educator with my first and I was like, shocked to get my period back at six months. I mean, do what is happening, and I was leaving for 12 hours shifts, but just once a week, and I was pumped, so he would get like, three bottles a week. None of my kids got a job or formula, but I got it back at six months. And then interesting. With my second I got it back at three months. And what my third, I got it back at eight weeks. I’m like, I don’t think that this method works for me. I’m not relying on

Amanda Montalvo 26:48
you. ovulated.

Therese Dansby 26:49
I don’t know if I did before eight weeks, but I certainly have since then. He’s eight now and I would have you see Oh, yeah. But the interesting thing is, I was so annoyed this time, I was like seriously, I’m so much more nourished. I’m like, Just give me a break. But I have had postpartum OCD this time. And there is a very drastic fluctuation within my cycle. So I think if I wasn’t have ovulating and having those two weeks of progesterone in my system, I don’t think that I would be doing very well right now.

Amanda Montalvo 27:22
That is so interesting. Yeah, cuz it’s calming. It’s like a stress relief.

Therese Dansby 27:26
Yeah. And I feel so much better during that part. I’m like, Oh, my, maybe my body is taking care of me after all. Yeah, it’s

Amanda Montalvo 27:33
you just didn’t know it. Just because it doesn’t look like you. We think it’s supposed to if you’re breastfeeding, what I know, like for a lot of women that I’ve talked to, it’s when they drop that nighttime feed that they typically get there. But not all, but a lot of them. It’s like they dropped out and feed and then they get their period. That

Therese Dansby 27:48
is fair. That is very common. I again, though, like let me caution you my child wakes every hour at night, I’m still ovulating. And

Amanda Montalvo 27:57
gosh, that is crazy. It’s so interesting what our bodies will do.

Therese Dansby 28:01
Yeah, so I have like that bias against it. Because I know that for me, I am glad that we have also used other methods of natural family planning. So I knew that it actually wasn’t. Okay, I know what I’m

Amanda Montalvo 28:16
scared to rely just on it, even though it’s, you know, it’s three and a half months now As of recording this. And it’s like, I haven’t had any signs or anything yet. You know, still, I’m just like, I just don’t know. Yeah, some people they don’t. If they coastally they don’t get their periods back until they’re like, yes, kids, two and a half, you know, so it’s, it’s interesting. It’s just good. You know, because we had a question around that of like, what did they say? When your cycle? Like, basically, when should you expect that your cycle comes back? Does it change your milk supply at all? So

Therese Dansby 28:48
it can I think it’s interesting, kind of knowing more about nutrition and mineral status and my own health now, because with my first I feel like it did, I always had a marginal supplier with him because I was playing that catch up game. We never had to stop limit, but we were always like, right there, you know, and I would notice it, but now I feel like I don’t notice it at all. So and I’m even having to relearn some of that because the theory is that the progesterone lowers your supply in the second half of the cycle. I’m not entirely convinced that that’s even true in pregnancy. It’s true. The placental progesterone absolutely opposes the prolactin so at the end of pregnancy, your prolactin is way up here. And your progesterone is way up here. So your prolactin I mean, it goes up a little bit after birth, but you have enough prolactin at any point after 20 weeks to breastfeed once the progesterone jobs and so it makes sense that that was kind of the working theory with with your cycle too, but I’ve been using like bioidentical progesterone drops this time and I feel like I have significantly more milk when I’m using. All that

Amanda Montalvo 29:58
is so okay, I get that quite Shouldn’t all the time and I also find that with clients, I usually just say like, don’t start using the progesterone until you have very regular milk supply. Like your baby’s good. You’re confident you know how to breastfeed, but I’ve only ever seen good results. It’s just like so

Therese Dansby 30:15
bizarre. Yeah, it’s like your body has to program itself and then it’s a lot more resilient. So you like sensitized those prolactin receptors, and then they can deal with a lot. But if you, for example, moms who deliver and then have a retained placenta, like a retained placenta piece, and like maybe they’re having more cramping, maybe they’re having more bleeding, they don’t know what’s going going on yet. Their milk doesn’t come in there. They feel like their baby’s hungry all the time, because there’s their progesterone never dropped all the way because the placenta never came fully out. Oh, so So absolutely. Progesterone does inhibit prolactin in the beginning, but I feel like exactly once your supplies established. I feel like the resiliency is there to add those things in. Yes, I definitely. Like progestin, and the mini pill, but but bioidentical progesterone. I have not found that to be the case.

Amanda Montalvo 31:07
Yeah, that’s good to know. And we had a question about pregnancy. And since you you had mentioned that 20 weeks, you have enough prolactin to breastfeed so many people are like, can you rescue while you’re pregnant? Yes,

Therese Dansby 31:20
you can. If your baby is under six months, you need to be following really closely with your pediatrician to make sure they’re getting enough milk. Generally, they’re toddlers by that point, ideally, and you can totally breastfeed through pregnancy. Generally, there will be a little bit of a drying up phase. And interestingly, even though you can produce all the milk at 20 weeks, you’re you’re not really going to when you’re pregnant. It’s only if the placenta comes out at that point, you could breastfeed so generally moms will see a drop in supply by the end of the first trimester. And then they’ll notice if their toddler is still nursing by the end of pregnancy, they will then start to notice a lot of colostrum all of a sudden. Okay, so there will be a little bit of an increase right at the end, but it’s mostly comfort and tiny little bits, which is still beneficial for your baby or toddler but definitely have your kids under one. Not so worried about the pregnancy side of it more worried about is your baby actually getting enough milk at that point.

Amanda Montalvo 32:22
Yeah, that’s a really good point. I was curious because I’m like, I know so many people that do it, but they are their kids are toddlers so they’re getting you know, most of their nourishment is not coming from breast milk. Yeah,

Therese Dansby 32:32
exactly. And most toddlers pregnancy or not, are just getting a few ounces a day, you know, at that point. So yeah.

Amanda Montalvo 32:48
Hey, Amanda here, just giving you a quick break, hopefully a break for your brain in the middle of this podcast episode, to remind you that if you haven’t gone through our free training, optimizing hormone health or mineral balance, we really do recommend starting there. And the main reason for that is because you’re going to hear us say things like mineral foundation, having a solid foundation, or you putting the foundations in place, especially what was we get deeper and deeper into different hormonal topics and specific imbalances in the body, the the mineral foundation is always going to be so essential. So if you haven’t watched the free training, you can find it in our show notes. Or you can go to hormone healing rd.com. And it’s going to be right on that front page there. But we really recommend starting there so you can understand how is your current mineral status? How do you assess this, and how to get started with all that just so you can get as much as you possibly can out of the rest of the podcast episodes. But that’s it. I hope you enjoy the rest of this episode.

So we have a technical question that which these are things that I feel like are just good for women that maybe they don’t they haven’t breastfed yet or they’re about to maybe they breastfed in the past where they had a baby. They couldn’t breastfeed. Now there they have another one. We had a question about can catching your letdown with a device like a haka or an LV, increased breast milk. I know you’re going to do a lot of definitions before you answer this. But yeah, that I thought that was a really good question.

Therese Dansby 34:18
Yeah, that is a good question. I think that I don’t have Are you a leaker or can I ask you that?

Amanda Montalvo 34:26
I don’t leak anymore because now Okay, now she’s like three and a half months?

Therese Dansby 34:29
Yeah. I think that some people are leakers and some people aren’t. So even some people are leaking at the end of pregnancy. Most people aren’t. Some people need to wear breast pads the whole time that breastfeeding some people don’t so I think that if you are a leaker, absolutely use a milk catcher and save all of that milk. So what would happen is you’re breastfeeding baby on one side for the moms who haven’t breastfed yet. Sometimes they’ll let down response will happen on both sides when the baby’s nursing on one side and you leave On the other side, so sometimes they’ll catch it in a towel or cloth, or just a pad and their nursing bra. But there are little silicone cups that you can tuck into the bra that capture it. And absolutely, I think if you’re leaker, you should do that. The haka is trickier. I don’t know how you feel about it, or if you’ve even tried it. My kids are so wiggly. I never really perfected the art of like haka on one side or pump on one side while they’re nursing on the other side. And for first time moms are you’re almost always offering both sides for a while. So I would hate for somebody to feel pressure like I should have pumped that side or put the haka on and but now the baby’s hungry, and I don’t want anybody kind of going down that little rabbit trail, but I have friends who have only ever used the haka to catch milk. The haka is for those who don’t know, is a one piece silicone, it looks like a pump, but it’s not a pump, you like invert the flange on it and put it on your breast. So it catches the milk but it also creates a negative pressure. So it’s, it’s removing milk a little bit more.

Amanda Montalvo 36:07
I’ll put images honestly. Yeah, the video version of this I know for myself, so the hot and I get what you’re saying with the haka, because it just kind of dangles right. The benefit of the pocket, you don’t have to wear a bra. So yeah, I love that. I did use it for a long time. I find it’s so fun. It’s everyone’s different. But I find that actually for me worked better if I did not fold it back and like suction it super tightly. I would still suction it but it wouldn’t be crazy strong and I would get like two to three ounces every dime, which was awesome. But then Eliana got very wiggly like you said with your kids as she got older. And I was like, Man, this is dangerous. I’m gonna spill this milk and then you get very sad, you know? Yeah, so I got an LV, which is the same idea. It’s still suction. So they call manual pumps, technically, I don’t just use them as a catcher. I wouldn’t even really be able to catch anything now because my milk is like regulated. But with the suction from the haka, or the LD, I do catch like a letdown. Usually, I still will get like between one and three ounces. Each time. She eats that I’m using it. It’s been like a little less. And I’m like, No, I don’t want to have to pump because I’m like donating breast milk to one of my friends. So I’m hoping it hangs on for a little bit longer. But the LV is nice because you put it in your bra and it’s flat. So

Therese Dansby 37:28
if that ever the lady the LV lady back is

Amanda Montalvo 37:31
that know that the ladybug is? The one? Yeah, that’s the kicker. But the haka, and the LV are both manual pumps. So it’s just like good stuff to know. Because you’re, I know, when I first everyone’s, like, get a haka, and then I’m like, I don’t know, I personally will just use the LV next time. It’s just so much more comfortable. I got some engagement with the haka. So look out for that. Yes. But the LV, I just never did so. And you do have to wear a bra or something to hold it in place, though. So those are kind of like the pros and cons. But I think most people are probably having have some sort of like CAMI or brawn anyway, so you can tuck the LV right in there. But if you catch the letdown of the other side, does it technically increase your supply?

Therese Dansby 38:19
just catching it would not increase your supply using the haka or the lb so do you have like the, like the wearable? The wearable pump? Like it’s not? Yeah, the L the LV also makes an electronic like pump? Oh, yeah. In your bra. Yeah. So. So the lie on the haka technically could increase your supply, there wouldn’t be like my first line of defense in terms of if a mom was meeting with me prenatally, and we were coming up with a plan, that wouldn’t be the first part of the plan. But definitely, if you’re in a situation like you are, where you are, and that honestly, everybody that I know that does that is donating milk. So it’s funny that you say that. So it’s like, the easiest way to do that. Absolutely. And if the baby that needs milk is your own, then absolutely, it saves you a little bit of pumping. But if you’re truly dealing with an under supply, it wouldn’t be my first go to.

Amanda Montalvo 39:14
Yeah, I think someone was just worried that they’re gonna get in gorged was my thinking, but I don’t, but you’re saying like, it’s not going to like crazily increase your milk supply. So that like you now have encouragement. Yeah.

Therese Dansby 39:26
Yeah. No, but you’re right. They can if you, if you put too much suction on it can cause your nipple to swell in your area lead as well, which is a little bit different than traditional engorgement. But yeah, that’s a whole different problem. Yeah,

Amanda Montalvo 39:40
yeah. But yeah, I would say like, I don’t know, I think the LV is more comfortable. You don’t have to worry about spilling it, but you know, do put put both on your registry and see what you like better. This is a good one and probably one that I was like, I don’t know if she’s gonna be able to answer this. Okay. Just more just like Without a visual, right of like, because someone was asking, like how do you know if you have a good latch? Like one? How do you do? How do you get a proper latch? One handy and then two, how do you know it’s good? And this person is already breastfeeding, okay, and they’re struggling a little bit with latching.

Therese Dansby 40:17
Okay, you should see the baby’s mouth open. Like as wide as if they’re yawning the corners of their mouth should be that wide. That I know looking back with my first it was not that wide. It was always narrower, you know, and now I know so much more. And I always kind of hurt a little bit. You know, I never had nipple damage, but I was like, this just isn’t super comfortable. And looking back the corners of his mouth are never as wide as if he was yawning. You shouldn’t be seeing tension and their lips or cheeks. They should look really relaxed when they’re latched to their lips should be flashed out not like holding on with tension. And their cheeks should not be puckering or dimpling. Some people like Oh, my baby has dimples. I’m like, Okay, let’s talk about this. Because sometimes they are using their cheeks like you would drink from a straw. And that’s not how we want them to be moving breast milk and that causes kind of sometimes though chief concave in like you’re drinking like a smoothie from a straw. Or sometimes you’ll just see the dimpling there, we don’t want to see that. So I’m telling you what, what not to look for, or deep latch. But mostly at the end of the day, a deep latch should be. You should feel movement, but not pain, and you should be hearing swallows. And when the baby’s done, your nipple should still be rounded and it shouldn’t be pinched up like a tube of new lipstick.

Amanda Montalvo 41:40
Yeah, I remember when I read that first description, I was like, Well, that’s exactly what my looks like. Oh, this is obviously not going well.

Therese Dansby 41:46
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that I’m maybe answered that question in reverse. How to know you don’t have a wide latch. But,

Amanda Montalvo 41:54
but well, because it’s kind of like, I just feel like when you’re until you’re doing it, you don’t really know. You know, like, I feel like I watched so many videos, there was like so many helpful visuals. The course I did had, like all different types of breast size, nipple size, which I was like, This is great, because you could find one that kind of looks like yours. Yeah. But again, like until you’re actually in the moment doing it. It was like I was, I think just like, it looks like she her mouth was over, you know, like just was

Therese Dansby 42:20
like they’re eating and sometimes if you’ve been struggling, you’re just so happy that they latched on that you don’t want to mess with it. And yeah,

Amanda Montalvo 42:29
yeah, the swallows though it was really helped me like hearing that because I was like, I’m not hearing any swallows. And then when she first got a good latch, it hurts so bad. And then I heard swallows and then we kind of like were able to navigate from there. But yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s a good, that’s an important one. We had a really interesting one. I know we talked a little bit about tongue ties and like oral restriction, someone asked, Is there anything you can do to decrease the probability? I know you’re not like a dentist, but you know, ya

Therese Dansby 42:58
know, so I’m trying to think so Michelle Emmanuelle is an OT, who developed the tummy time method. And she so there are several different bodywork methods that are very helpful with with feeding babies with tongue ties. And one of them is Tommy talking about this. So I’ve taken a class from a show I’ve taken cranial fascial therapy, Gillespie method training. One of her big things as moms movement and mobility during pregnancy impacts how the baby’s or patterns and structures develop. And so I thought that was interesting, because before that I previously just heard, okay, it’s a midline defect. It’s related to MTHFR it’s an I’m sure you more than anyone know that you had adequate folate during pregnancy, you know, and it can so I remember what my second I was like, Okay, I’m gonna take that methylated B vitamins, you know, and like, her tongue tie was worse. Oh, gosh, yeah. And then with a third one, I was like, okay, so Weston, a price talks about Vitamin A helps form symmetry. And then vitamin K, of course, helps with jaw development. And so this isn’t a perfect experiment, but I have three kids. And so with the third one, I worked with you right when I got pregnant and made sure that I was getting enough vitamin A and vitamin K, and then I also got cranial sacral therapy for myself during this pregnancy. So he moved a lot more in utero. And he still had a tongue tie, but his function was like drastically different, which was interesting. So it’s more than just the folate piece. I think mom’s movement, vitamin A vitamin K, those, but I think still at the end of the day, there’s a hereditary piece. I mean, my husband has a tongue tie, like to the tip of his tongue.

Amanda Montalvo 44:44
Like, oh, wow, did he? Yeah, revise.

Therese Dansby 44:47
You got it revised while I was pregnant this time. So I was like, you’ve got to stop snoring. I love you. But there’s a hereditary piece too, right? It’s just all of us have different things and different facial features and that’s one of them too. So I think I felt a little bit of shame with my second one because I felt like I did everything right that time and it was worse and I was just so confused. So there was a lot of pieces.

Amanda Montalvo 45:13
I love the idea of the cranial having getting the cranial sacral therapy while you’re pregnant. I think I would definitely do that next time. That’s what really helped Eliana loosen hers? Yeah, I think there’s a genetic piece too, because I have the exact same ones as her, like tongue and lip. Mine are not tight. Hers are not tight anymore. And I think that’s the important thing. If you guys are listening to this, and you’re like, I have a baby with the tongue die. What do I do? I love the frilly rooted podcast with Korean fowl. And they did a great episode with Mikhail who has a great course called midline revolution that I did with Eliana. She goes through a lot of bodywork and stuff. But the Pacus episode in and of itself, will just it goes through like the history of tongue ties. And one of the things I really like that McHale talks about is that you can have a tie there, but it might not be tight. Right? Like it like how you said, your most recent baby, like there’s more functional in the function is what matters. So you know, I think now people are so quick to just like snip, snip, snip or use a laser and get rid of them. And but then, like, they still don’t have the function that their tongue is supposed to. Yeah. So it doesn’t solve all the problems that you thought it would. But that’s so interesting that the cranial sacral therapy while pregnant, that’s a good idea. Yeah,

Therese Dansby 46:21
yeah. So because my other babies, I felt like they would just kind of locked and loaded by a certain point in the third trimester. And this one was just moving around till till the end. So I was You figure if you’re stuck in a position, you see this with people with various disabilities, your your muscles shorten. Yeah, and you know what I mean, like you’re asymmetries that develop that are purely positional. And then it becomes a vicious cycle of like, a weakness, and then a shortening and a tightening and, yeah, so this was interesting.

Amanda Montalvo 46:54
Yeah, I know, one of the first things we did was go to the chiropractor with her, but I mean, technically shouldn’t have any tightness, but he was like, my chiropractors Webster base, and he’s like most babies that he’s used to the oral restrictions that have trouble feeding. It is like a physical tightness, like you’re talking about, they could get that, like in utero, you know, so that’s so interesting. So many, so many facets like and pieces of it. Okay, milk supply question. This person, they’re still breastfeeding their babies, nine months? I think they’re seeing their supply dip. How can you increase milk supply at nine months?

Therese Dansby 47:29
Yeah. So I guess my question would be, how is your baby doing this solids? And what do we mean by dipping? And then also, yeah, how’s your cycle comeback? Where are we in that? Because like I said, some people really will, even before their cycle has come back. They’re like, Oh, I’m having a lot of nipple pain. And I feel like baby’s not getting enough milk. And then the next week, they get their period. And it’s like, okay, my body was just a little bit confused. So your supplies supposed to go down by nine months. And I feel like that’s hard in an age where we’re so like, outcome driven, you know, it’s like, I gotta have this crazy supply all the way through and like, No, you you don’t, once your baby is doing well with solids, nine months is a pretty common point for them to start doing well with solids, the first month or two are is like learning, and they may not be actually swallowing much of it. But by nine months, they should be eating solids. Two or three times a day, like legitimate servings of them. And one of the perks of that is that you don’t have to suddenly have 30 ounces of milk a day for them. So yeah, I did struggle with that with my first two. Because when I would go to work, I would get laughs and I’m like, Oh my gosh, like, are we? And so it’s all relative. It’s like, what do we mean by lower? What do we mean by less? Yeah, it’s, it’s normal for it to go down. And generally, most women are going to feel a little bit better. Like you know, like, you’re, you’re kind of saying with your cycle coming back nine months is a common point for that to happen to, by the way, so there is something hormonally that happens there.

Amanda Montalvo 49:03
I wonder if she’s gonna get it like right after? Yeah, and similar, like someone asked about, like six months, like what’s what is like a common cause of supply nipping at six months, and I had messaged this person because I was like, What do you mean? It’s just like, so I’m like, I know that Teresa’s gonna need more context. And she had just said that she still is exclusively breastfeeding. And they’re trying to slowly incorporate salads but like you said, like, probably not eating much in the beginning. And but she did say she had brought a lot of breast pain in the beginning and then it went away around like a six week mark, so she kind of thought she was in the clear.

Therese Dansby 49:40
So six months. I’m curious. Do you know if she had a boy or a girl?

Amanda Montalvo 49:45
I don’t know. Yeah, I

Therese Dansby 49:47
find that boys. Generally. Boy, when you have a boy you actually produce higher calorie milk and they actually eat? No, I’m sorry boys have higher calorie milk. Last overgeneralization, I think girls usually have a little bit of a higher supply. Okay. And I would agree with that anecdotally, from my own experience, but that’s what the textbooks say, I have found with both of my boys that between five and a half and six months, it was like, You’re starving me, like, what are we doing here? And they did. They started waking up every hour at night, and they just wanted to eat all day. And I had the same exact thought, like, Am I losing my supply? And then I would go to work and pump and Nope, it’s all it’s all there. And one of my friends who’s a chiropractor and works a lot with babies, said that she sees a lot of like a developmental need for different textures at that age, even because I remember what this baby in particular, I was like you weren’t getting because I had somebody who was very ill informed telling me that he was hungry. And that’s why he was waking all night. And at first, I was like, He’s not like he’s gaining so much weight. Like, I’m not starving my child. And I was so offended. And I was talking to my friend and she was like, but there is a developmental need for different textures, different nutrients. She said thing, if you ate milkshakes for six months, why don’t you like crave a hamburger? Or like a salad or something, you know, like you start needing variety, nutritionally at that point, too. And so if she’s seeing those behaviors, I would wonder if maybe her supply hasn’t been decreased, but her kids need to have actually increased? Yeah. Which is, then of course, when you introduce meat, purees and broths, and really nutrient dense things like that.

Amanda Montalvo 51:36
Yeah, I feel like that would make so much sense for that timeline. And that it’s just a good one to know, too. I’m just gonna tuck that away in the back of my mind.

Therese Dansby 51:46
I caught me by surprise every time I’m like, what? Like, what is going on? And then like, Oh, you’re almost six months old. I guess I got this time.

Amanda Montalvo 51:54
And I have, I’m sure you get this question all the time. But I’m still curious if your answer is nipple confusion real. If you’re doing combo feeding with breast and bottle, like, I can’t tell you how many because like so many. I saw a four different lactation consultants. And they all were like do not give her a bottle because she’ll never breastfeed again. And you can only use this kind of bottle and I will tell you what, I give that girl two bottles and she ate Yeah, so well after that. And she just she just needs the energy. And she’s never taken a bottle since pretty much but yeah, is it true? Do should you avoid bottles if you’re breastfeeding?

Therese Dansby 52:33
I hate the term nipple confusion because and I hate that term. It’s kind of along the lines of like your baby’s just lazy or I mean, like babies are so smart. They’re not fused, and they’re not lazy. It is true that if a baby is like only getting bottles, so I’m thinking of my NICU babies in particular, it’s hard to go home after three months of bottles and switch to the breasts and the odds of that are pretty low. Ideally, you’re working on it in the NICU. I’ve seen plenty of babies thrive with both and be able to go back and forth with both the inability to go back and forth does point to oral motor dysfunction, and type of bottle matters. We do like the kind I like to send you want the bottle nipple to look like the breast during a beating so we don’t want it to look like the breast that rests so those ones that are like round and then they just have like a nipple sticking. I’m trying to think like the Tommy to be like kind of like kind of looks like a breath, but not the way of rest looks like during a feeding. So then you put like the Evenflo balance nipple next to a Tommee Tippee nipple, you’ll see that the slope is so much more gradual and it looks much more like your breast would look while the baby’s latched. So that matters too. But again, a baby in a perfect world with no oral motor function dysfunction can do all of that. I don’t see a lot of babies like that because they don’t need my help. I don’t think that you can cause confusion, I think that you can cause a flow preference for sure. Particularly if like in my case where a baby wasn’t getting enough he was on the low end of the weight range. And absolutely, like you’re saying they’re they’re not getting a lot of calories, they are conserving energy, you do want to give a bottle and it can actually improve breastfeeding to give them a bottle in an appropriate way. So we talked about patients bottle feeding and sidelining bottle feeding. We talk about slow flow nipples for a lot of babies, because we don’t want them to drink four ounces and five minutes and then go to the breast and it takes 20 minutes and they’re frustrated. So generally it’s a flow thing or an oral motor thing. More Yeah, like confusion.

Amanda Montalvo 54:38
I love the way that you explain that and I think that’s a great way to put it and will hopefully make people feel less afraid to introduce a bottle if they feel like their baby needs it. We were taught the paste bottle feeding honestly we let it go because she it would take her like an hour and it was just like insane. So we just finally we’re just like whatever and she’ll take it from my husband every once in a while if he needs to, but I mean, she’s only taken probably, like four balls in her whole life. But yeah, it was very helpful those two in the beginning because it just yeah gave her energy because it’s like, you know, it does take them energy to eat. But I hate I hate when I like I was so upset and then to have her do so well I’m like, Oh my gosh, and I felt like a terrible mom giving her a bottle. You know, so it was just like a whole thing. So I’m like, I can’t wait to hear

Therese Dansby 55:25
Teresa’s especially if you have like nipple damage or pain or like you’re dreading the next feeding session, giving a bottle is going to preserve your breastfeeding journey. It’s not gonna destroy it. Yeah, I

Amanda Montalvo 55:37
love that. Okay, do you have time for one more? Yeah, totally. Breastfeeding and tooth decay. I thought this was very interesting. I didn’t know is this common? So tell me how to avoid tooth decay and an extended breastfeeding child. Do you see that a lot.

Therese Dansby 55:53
I don’t personally, mostly because people aren’t calling me by by this point. After a year, I helped to moderate a Facebook breastfeeding group for a while. And there what I see a lot is there are a lot of dentists that are shaming mom for breastfeeding at night, once the baby gets teeth, so that absolutely is very prevalent. Is the breastfeeding causing cavities? I don’t know. I don’t think that it is. I again anecdotally. I breastfed my first two past two years at night. They’ve never had a cavity.

Amanda Montalvo 56:27
Yeah, I feel like it’s always nutrition. I can’t You can’t ago or their nutritional status.

Therese Dansby 56:32
Yeah, it’s minerals. And I think there is also something to be said for ties particularly, there is a particular pattern of cavities that some toddlers get in their front teeth, actually. So it’s not their back teeth. And sometimes you can have a lip tie that’s so tight that it is chopping milk sugar under there. So absolutely, that’s to the k, you probably do need to look at getting that revised if it if it’s tight enough and low enough to be chopping milk or food and holding it against the tea. But I don’t I don’t think there’s enough actual evidence for it. Because I have looked into it too. Because I thought yeah, oh my gosh, should I be like waking my toddler up to brush their teeth that turn or something to sleep? And I just couldn’t find any convincing evidence that that was the case. Yeah, I

Amanda Montalvo 57:18
think our bodies are smart. Like, if you look at breast milk and how it changes, the baby gets older and changes and just how our bodies adapt during pregnancy and postpartum. I’m like there’s got to be something built in for that. Especially because in most parts of the world, and I mean, you breastfeed well past

Therese Dansby 57:36
two years old. Yeah. Well, and the other thing is mouth breathing is your thing. Your your good cavities. So yeah, I think mouth breathing and minerals and oral restrictions are much more culprits than breast milk.

Amanda Montalvo 57:50
Yeah, but it’s so like, if you if someone is breastfeeding, and they’re seeing that if they you know, if their dentist is kind of pointing to the breastfeeding saying don’t do that. Like there’s a few things you can also like,

Therese Dansby 58:03
find a holistic dentist. Yeah, yes, if you

Amanda Montalvo 58:05
can. Okay, so you’re a lactation consultant, you work online and people do, right?

Therese Dansby 58:11
I do. Yeah, I do virtual consults and in person, okay.

Amanda Montalvo 58:15
Any tips for finding a good lactation consultant?

Therese Dansby 58:18
Oh, that’s so hard. I don’t love Facebook mom groups necessarily, but they are a good place to find local resources. So I think asking, Where can I find a lactation consultant in my area, there is no actual database, which is kind of weird, because it’s an international, like certifying board, but they don’t you can’t search on their website by area, you can only search by name to verify that that person is in fact an ibclc. So there’s not a great database. I don’t have a good answer for that. Maybe I need to build it, but it’s word of mouth on.

Amanda Montalvo 58:55
Yeah, I mean, like I asked like my midwife, I got recommendation from my chiropractor, surprisingly, I didn’t even think to ask him and then when we were having trouble, he was like, hey, I really like this person. And then we saw, like other providers, right? Like if you trust other providers, especially I did a homebirth so like my midwife was like, you know more holistic for sure. So I trusted like who she recommended me but I think asking providers if you can or other people that have had babies and you know that they breastfed, do they see someone someone, it also that’s in North Carolina, she recommended someone that was like, somewhat close. So yeah, word of mouth, but I was like, um, like, I don’t I could not find anything online. Unfortunately. I’m like, I wonder.

Therese Dansby 59:37
Yeah, asking your provider is probably even better than asking in a mom’s group because they’ve worked directly with these people and kind of have a feel for Yeah, it wouldn’t be a good fit for you. Yeah. And you do you just want to ask them their background and their experience and I think ibclc is technically the gold standard, but I have known I knew one CLC who was it’s like a lesser certification. But she’d been a lot of Ag Leader. And she’d done this for like 20 years. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. She’s a great person to go to, you don’t only have to look for an ibclc. It’s much more about like, what your experience and knowledge bases.

Amanda Montalvo 1:00:17
Yeah. And I think to just like, you know, asking them questions like, if you have a concern me, like, how would you address this situation? Like, are you open minded? If you have like a specific thing that maybe you don’t want to budge on? You know, like, just that that was like, the first thing I asked if I’m like, Okay, I want I need help with actual latch work. But I’m not going to get her revised. Like, will you help me and not constantly tell me that she needs a revision? Because it’s like, so frustrating. So it’s like, don’t be afraid to ask questions. But your course hopefully will be launched by the time that this comes out. What can people expect from the course? Like, what can they expect to learn?

Therese Dansby 1:00:51
Yeah, so it’s kind of everything. I’m building it with my friend, Courtney, who’s also an ibclc. And I have three kids, and she’s pregnant with our third and we just both struggled with her first. And we just, this is just everything we wish we had known. So it is everything we teach in our in person classes. But then it’s so much more because you have the online platform again, where people can pause and come back. And we’re just like throwing out all those anchors for your whole postpartum journey, not just for nipple pain. So it walks through preparing for your breastfeeding journey, kind of some of the nerdy parts of how your milk comes in, and the nutritional status of milk and how mom’s nutritional status affects it. Then, of course, we do all the breastfeeding one on one stuff and we talk a lot about postpartum physical health, postpartum mental health. It really it’s like a breastfeeding and postpartum course combined into one I will say, yeah, for everything

Amanda Montalvo 1:01:47
that you need, because postpartum is so amazing, but it can be very challenging. So arm yourself with as much like education and knowledge as you can. I love that. I can’t wait to go through it. Honestly. I’m excited. And yeah, so I’ll go I’ll grab all those links from you when it’s officially out. I can’t wait. I know you guys have been working so hard on this. Since like we last.

Therese Dansby 1:02:09
So I know. It’s ridiculous. Because yeah, when you know, when you have kids like work, work plans, just like oh, okay, my babysitter canceled today. I guess I’m not doing X, Y and Z. Yeah. And, you know, that’s that’s an adventure piled

Amanda Montalvo 1:02:23
artists thing ever. A whole module on childcare? No.

Therese Dansby 1:02:27
Yeah. Well, we do talk about child care, but it is, yeah. What has it been hard for you just the emotional part of, of leaving

Amanda Montalvo 1:02:36
emotionally, finding the right person, I feel like everything, every aspect, and all my mom friends warned me, they all warned me and I’m like, this doesn’t matter. It’s like, you just kind of think, again until you’re in a because what do you gonna do? You’re like, Okay, well, that’s great. I’ll try to look out for that. But yeah, it’s it’s challenging. And then being away from your baby. It just feels to me like biologically wrong, I miss her. I miss her right now. And I can’t wait to go snuggle her when we get off. And it’s just really hard and all around, but then like, you’re holding them and then you forget it all. So, you know, I think it’s just good to like, be mentally prepared that if you do have to end up like going back to work and get childcare, like, talk to someone about it talk to other like, what’s really helps me is talking to other moms, obviously, like therapists and stuff are great, but like, there’s nothing like just chatting with another mom. And you know, she’s got like a golden nugget for you. Or she just says one thing that makes you feel better, or you’re just both are there to support each other. So

Therese Dansby 1:03:35
three months is so soon. I mean, I still vividly Right, yeah, it’s like physically difficult. And sometimes you’re still overwhelmed, and you need that break. But then you step away from your baby. And you’re like, I don’t feel okay, right now.

Amanda Montalvo 1:03:47
It’s the weirdest thing is napping and like watching videos of her, like why? It gets

Therese Dansby 1:03:53
better, like somewhere between six and nine months. And then with each kid that part’s a little easier, but going back to work at three months, when people are in my class to some of them are like, Oh, I’m just gonna take six weeks. And I’m like, I just really want to encourage you to take 12 weeks like, yeah, just minimum

Amanda Montalvo 1:04:09
minimum. Yes. I mean, you

Therese Dansby 1:04:11
can have the most straightforward delivery in the world. Yeah, exactly. If you can, which is the unfortunate part. But absolutely, like those extra six weeks are going to affect the rest of your life. I mean, everything changed. But just six weeks. Yeah. And and I mean, my leaves were unpaid every time. So I totally get it. It was hard. But we were thankfully able to make that work. And I know that some people are in a position where they can’t but going back at six weeks or less is just it’s a most hardly

Amanda Montalvo 1:04:43
you. Yeah, so the baby like I just imagine, it’s hard

Therese Dansby 1:04:47
to maintain a breastfeeding relationship because you’ve just kind of gotten in the swing of things. And it’s hard for your health, like the stress levels and the physical stress of being up and about at work and it’s just, oh yeah, I just I wish that we had a different way to do that now, but 12 weeks feels so long when you don’t have a baby. And then when the baby’s here, you’re like, what happened? I

Amanda Montalvo 1:05:07
know. I know. And then you’re kind of like just getting your groove. And then you’re like, oh, no, everything’s gonna change. I like just figured out how to do this. That’s where we’re at now. But it’s like slowly getting better. And it feels so good to be back and like doing things now that I wasn’t working completely for those three months. I really tried. I really tried. But yeah, so I love that it covers the postpartum experience, too. Because I do think that, like, yes, actually, like the logistics and stuff of breastfeeding is so important. But even just having a little bit of knowledge of like, here’s all the stuff that comes with that. Because it’s not just breastfeeding. There’s like, you know, other things in your life and stuff that are going on. So I love that. Yeah, yeah. I can’t What is it called? What’s it going to be called?

Therese Dansby 1:05:49
It’s called nourished beginnings. And so it’s kind of encompassing the mom and the baby.

Amanda Montalvo 1:05:54
Oh, that’s really sweet. That’s a really great name.

Therese Dansby 1:05:57
It took us like six months to come up with it. The good ones always do.

Amanda Montalvo 1:06:01
Yeah. But well, I can’t thank you enough for coming on and chatting with me, Therese. Thank you. I really appreciate it. We’ll see what kind of questions we get. I would love to do like a specific because that we haven’t covered breastfeeding on my podcast before. So this is kind of just like a little generalized thing. If we get a ton of questions, maybe we do another episode. But yeah, I just appreciate it. I love chatting with you. And I love your approach. I think it’s very balanced. It’s not overwhelming. It’s attainable. And like that’s what moms need.

Therese Dansby 1:06:32
Yes, yeah. Yep. Thank you so much.

Amanda Montalvo 1:06:50
Thank you for listening to the RU menstrual podcast. If you enjoyed today’s episode, please consider leaving us a review and sharing the podcast with someone you think it will help. If you are new here, we can’t recommend enough to start with our mineral imbalance quiz. This is going to give you an idea if you are at low, moderate or high risk for mineral imbalances. And then of course, make sure you follow us on Instagram at hormone healing rd. And consider signing up for our newsletter if you like nerding out and you’re just loving these podcasts, but maybe you’re a little bit more visual and you want to see things too. We go into a ton of detail in our weekly newsletter. So we would love to have you join us there. All right, thank you and we will see you in the next episode.

Amanda Montalvo

Amanda Montalvo is a women's health dietitian who helps women find the root cause of hormone imbalances and regain healthy menstrual cycles.

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